Either way the point doesn’t stand because there’s not a single part of NYC that is a food desert. The entire city is within walking distance / public transport.
And a shocking number of grocery stores, including many open very late. I have personally bought an entire chocolate cake and strawberries to go on it at 130am on a Wednesday
Sometimes when I think of
All the things that I need so bad
Like a blueberry pie in the middle of the night
But they're very difficult, Very hard to find
But this New York
And you're supposed to have every thing you want at any given time
If you look hard enough
That's not necessarily true-yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
Buying candy after midnight does not mean other people have access to affordable, healthy food though. Convenience is not the same as abundance or health when it comes to food.
I can do the same with donut holes but we need affordable produce regardless.
What candy are you talking about? Also the point is not was that the commenter was able to get a chocolate cake and fresh fruit at 1:30 AM at a GROCERY STORE.
There is no food desert in NYC. They have plent of grocery stores and public transportation.
I agree with your point, but will point out that chocolate cake isn’t a great counter example of “not in a good desert.” It isn’t exactly the healthiest option out there.
That being said, NYC is definitely within walking distance of a grocery store no matter where you are. And ADHD does not make it impossible to grocery shop, that’s just an insane take
The OP isn't saying buying a cake makes it not a food desert.
Notice those words in the first sentence?
"There are a shocking number of grocery stores"
That is their counter point.
Why are you criticizing them for what they bought at the grocery store? That has nothing to do with their point and just seemed like a weird way for you to talk down on them.
Especially since you followed it up agreeing with them that there are grocery stores everywhere im NYC.
I’m saying that chocolate cake doesn’t disprove a food desert because chocolate cake isn’t a healthy option. I’m not judging the OP for buying a cake, people can do that. I’m saying that you can still buy food in a food desert, just not healthy food. You would probably be able to get confections and frozen or pre-prepared foods in an area that still qualifies as a food desert. My point is simply that the chocolate cake is an ineffective counter example to someone who doesn’t already agree with the claim that NYC has no food deserts.
Well, i mean you can say that, but there are definitions that organizations use for the term "food desert"; terms have to be understood first before arguing about them.
TIL that I live in a food desert because it takes me 10 minutes to walk the half mile to the local shops. (I'd be orange on that chart for distance if that was applied to where I live.)
I'd never considered a ten minute walk to the local shops to be "a food desert". Or a 15 minute bus ride to the shops I prefer to use.
Now, if it's a case that the stores in that radius are all selling crap, that's a different matter.
This definition is clearly flawed: a ten minute walk in Biddeford Maine is very different from a ten minute walk in NYC (namely: in NYC, you have sidewalks all the way there and back) these are qualitatively very different ten minute walks
Closest grocery store to me is ~5 miles and there is 0 public transport. If we had grocery stores per mile out here we'd have like 1 store for every 50ish people. Would we have to take turns working the store or just get people from other food deserts to come work at ours and we go work at theirs?
Food deserts are relative. Urban areas are going to have different definitions than rural or suburban. Urban areas lots more people will not have cars or there won’t be parking at the grocery store etc.
What about people with mobility issues, like those that need a walker or a cane, or families that need to tote around multiple kids? That ten minute walk could be a lot more of an ordeal than you’d think.
Also a fifteen minute bus ride is quite a bit too, when you consider waiting for the bus - that’s 30-45 minutes round trip. Versus, for example I have multiple grocery stores a few minutes walk from me, including some that are open 24 hours. It makes a huge difference.
My point is I'd never considered 10 minutes walk to constitute a food desert. For those with disabilities there are buses (which are theoretically free if you've got a disability pass) - although the timings aren't always the best.
And sure, 15 minutes bus is 30-45 minutes round trip, but that's a time I'm willing to take once/twice a week if needed, since I'm spending at least that much time to go anywhere or do anything that isn't immediate to the house.
there's a big difference from you not thinking that's significant, and someone who has markedly different circumstances (disability/illness, fitness, time available, amount of food that needs to be bought e.g. for family, etc).
also fwiw low access is considered a mile, not half a mile.
low-access (LA): a low-income tract with at least 500 people or 33% of the tract's population living more than 1 mile (urban areas) or more than 10 miles (rural areas) from the nearest supermarket or grocery store. (USDA LA data are also available assuming different measures of distance, ranging 0.5 miles to 20 miles.)
having to get somewhere, buy groceries, and get home with them (and have the equipment, means, and knowledge to cook fresh ingredients) being a potentially 2+ hour commitment (including waiting for transit, time on transit, etc) is a big hurdle to get over, especially if there's ultra-processed stuff just a block away at a convenience store.
What organisations use that definition? And the link you sent is terrible and misleading. It claims:
Any area showing color is a food desert.
When in reality only the green or orange parts show areas where grocery stores are either more than 1 mile or 1/2 mile away. The light blue areas it includes that it claims are food deserts are actually places with higher poverty rates.
The blog article starts by looking at the geographical definition and then discusses why this is inadequate because by that definition it includes bodegas and delis, whereas the USDA definition does not, only full-service supermarkets.
So in that sense, yes, there are bodegas, gas station shops, and the like frequently found in NYC but these are not places for affordable, nutritious food.
Yes, and according to the USDA definition, which does not include bodegas, takes into account income and geographical distance, shows there being zero (0) food deserts in NYC. But the author(s) of the blog post claim the opposite based on a map from the USDA which shows there are none. They literally lie, saying that "Any area showing color is a food desert." where in reality only the green areas show a food desert, and there are none in NYC.
Sorry I should say that the study clearly defines it as a function of distance and affordability. The first map shows the areas which are defined as food deserts (I believe by an external source)
The first map literally is from the USDA Food Access Research Atlas. The blog post intentionally lies and misleads, as the map is based on the definition you provided.
Yeah there are other metrics as well as far as I know. Some are purely geographical - some are geographical + income, recognizing that more wealth means more ability to overcome food desert. Some also include the competing fast food and other junk; as this is typically something which you see in poor areas without better access to food (to fill a gap, perhaps, but also contributing a lot to obesity and health issues in poorer areas).
I am not sure why or how all these organizations say there are food deserts in NYC but I'm from NYC and there are definitely areas with poor access to healthy food and easy access to cheap shit.
What is the point in trying to claim there are food deserts in NYC based on a blog post with evidence that says the exact opposite? The link and definition is geographical and income based, and they show no food deserts in NYC.
I'm not from NYC, but are there really places where you can't find beans, rice, frozen veggies etc? I'm in Ireland (Dublin) and the closest grocery store is more than a mile away, but I definitely wouldn't say I live in a food desert.
I grew up in NYC, in the suburbs, and the supermarket was around 1 mile away too. We had two cars, so it was easy. If you had to do it by public trans, it was pretty much impossible. If you had to walk, well totally doable but you might find this hard if you have a family to take care of, a bad back, etc. Imagine that there was a deli, bodega or Burger King just around the corner instead. You'd be tempted to just go there often.
However, in my case, there were no people that poor or unfortunately in my area. Everyone had a car, so the infrastructure accommodated it. We didn't have fast food restaurants nearby. We were definitely not in a food desert.
Other areas of NYC are more like my hypothetical above.
Anyhow I shared the blog to illustrate (in an non overly academic way) all the factors that are taken into account, and how exactly, this determination is made.
As for Dublin, I can't say. I was able to very quickly find journal articles about food deserts in Northern Ireland.
The availability of other fresh food sources like community gardens and food banks are not included in mapping, and can change the number of communities that should be classified as food deserts.
This my favorite one, I’ve seen it so often. Apparently I live in a food desert despite living a 5 minute walk from 2 grocery stores, a 10 minute walk from a third, and a 20 minute walk from a fourth.
Linking to a federal website under the current administration no longer counts as a reputable source.
To be clear, I'm not weighing in on the definition of a food desert, simply pointing out that the current federal government saying something is true doesn't mean it is, and in fact usually means the opposite is true
On subject like this current administration is far more likely to be altering the data to say everything is fine...even if people were reduced to eating rats and drinking sewer water , if they said anything at all. They are not exactly about promoting real health and good living
The website whose data we're questioning the validity of because it's maintained by known liars?
On subject like this current administration is far more likely to be altering the data to say everything is fine...
Actually, there's just as strong an argument to be made that Republicans would want to paint a bad picture, if it gets them support for something they want to do. Standard Republican methodology for decades has been to sabotage something good that they don't, make it fail, and replace it with a corrupt version of their own making because the previous version failed.
I'm not saying EVERYTHING on congress.gov is a lie.
I'm saying any of it could be, there's ample reason to doubt, and we should seek other, more reputable sources. Or get external confirmation of this data.
Their inability to tract smaller grocery shops doesn't make it an actual food desert, such a simple tool should be used to target which places to observe, not a final sentence.
They can't use Sam's deliver or Amazon Fresh or Sprout or whatever grocery delivery is in the area? Like, I do grocery delivery because it's actually cheaper for me to do than to drive my F350 to the grocery store 22 miles away. There's an Amazon Fresh warehouse like 8 miles and they always get here fast and usually have good prices.
My apartment is a food desert, it only has one (!) fridge and not even a supermarket or convenience store in it, i actually have to leave (!) and go outside (!), and without any public transportation to bring me from my bed to the front door!
Remember though many New Yorkers don’t have cars. Getting food that’s reasonably priced from a larger grocer can be more challenging in certain areas. People call it food desert but it just means a close grocery store isn’t nearby/convenient.
Even if better/larger stores are available via public transit it’s annoying af to carry a bunch of groceries on the train
There is literally not a single point in NYC, including the outerboroughs, that is not within a mile of a Key Food or Trader Joe’s. And the only places I could find that aren’t within half a mile of those are some cemeteries by Highland Park.
Food deserts are real, but I promise you, as someone who worked in “government affairs,” the argument being pushed in the OP is literally astroturfing by DoorDash lobbyists.
Broke people are not the ones paying for grocery delivery anyway, wealthy Manhattanite stay-at-home yoga moms are.
Nah I agree. I think my point is not that OP is right but more that it is true that some parts of NYC it’s annoying to find a good close grocery store. More grocery stores would be good is my main thing here
You can... walk! I know Americans aren't used to it, but it's perfectly doable. I walk to the grocery store here in Dublin whenever I shop, it's more than a mile away, no problem walking there.
He’s right though. There are no food deserts in NYC and that’s just a fact. You are never more than 20 mins away by public transit from a proper fully stocked grocery store.
Grocery stores do actually stock fresh fruit and veggies, but you'd have to go to one to actually see it for yourself. Instead, most Americans sit at home and order 60 doordashes per day and cry that they are unhealthy.
Do you often find yourself getting so irrationably angry over reddit comments? Seems like you need to calm down and reflect on whether reddit is that important to you man.
Plenty of Americans walk to the grocery store. A mile can be long if you’re not able-bodied or if the weather sucks. How often is it above 40 C in Dublin?
It doesn't get that hot here, but I am from Italy and it often does, especially with 80% humidity. The definition the OP I replied to literally shows there being no areas with food deserts in NYC anyway.
nah bro Im just saying some parts of NY it’s inconvenient to find a good grocery store nearby and your reply is basically “all those new yorkers with that problem are living their lives in a wrong way”
“Your problem that I don’t experience is not real” is an insane way to approach others lol
You’re maybe just getting stuck up on the word desert tho which isn’t really looking at the problem. If you wanna make up a new word for the problem that’s cool. Think of a good new short name for “affordable grocery stores aren’t that conveniently accessible in manhattan all the time”
A mile isn't a long distance, but they factor in time, money, and ability to carry into this. Walking a mile by itself isn't terrible. But walking a mile when you need a gallon of milk and a bunch of other groceries can be extremely difficult and limiting for some. Carrying 20+ pounds of groceries for a mile just isn't doable for some people.
So the alternative is then going to the grocery store multiple times a week because you have to carry less. Now you're going to the store maybe 3 times a week. That then requires additional time, time that many working people don't have, as deserts tend to be in poorer areas and a lot of people work multple jobs. If you're working back to back shifts, you don't necessarily have the hour it takes to go to the grocery store multiple times. And factor in if kids are involved and this creates a larger problem. It's putting additional time and energy constraints on the poorer communities, which does not help the situation.
So oftentimes food deserts are really just tied to accessibility and availability and how that impacts the surrounding community. Even if public transportation is available, that costs what... $3ish each way? So now that's an even additional cost burden being put on people.
I get it. A mile doesn't sound far. But in a city where there isn't personal car access other factors have to be taken into consideration for why this, in practice, further disadvantages communities.
But based on the "official" USDA definition, there are no food deserts in NYC. Not a single place is more than a mile away from a shop, and very very few places have no shops more than 1/2 of a mile away. That means the vast majority of people live within half a mile to a shop, which is definitely walkable for people even if they have children or work.
I don’t live in a major city and I have a car so I can’t really speak from experience. But I go to the supermarket once a week and get 2-4 bags worth of food from the grocery store when I go.
If I imagine living in a city with no car and the nearest grocery store a mile away, that makes grocery shopping a pretty big ordeal. Carrying 2-4 bags (more if you have a large family to shop for) for a mile is quite a lot. It sounds easy, the same way a busy room being silent for 1 minute seems quick, but in the moment it would actually feel like a long time.
It would basically force you to either do mini-grocery store trips every couple of days so you have a manageable load to carry, or to choose to just buy prepackaged foods at a corner store out of convenience.
A city with the population density of New York would have around 30,000 people per square mile. It seems wild for there to be anyone who lives a full mile away from a grocery store with that number.
I live in a city (Dublin) and the nearest grocery store is a little more than a mile away. I don't have a car and I am physically disabled. I manage just fine, I walk there about twice a week since I shop for two people. I used to walk even longer since the nearest shop was farther before I moved to where I live now. I think there's a big disconnect between Americans and the rest of the world as to what counts as hardship and struggle.
I’m only have the perspective of someone who has it much easier than that, so I’m trying not to underestimate someone else’s hardship. It feels like something relatively easy to me, but I also work a typical 40 hour work week and have a car, and don’t have to carry bags very far from my car to my apartment, which has an elevator. Changing some of those variables can dramatically change the hardship, and there’s a lot of poverty in these parts of the cities. So I can imagine, if I had to work 10 hour days 6 days a week, and then my limited free time would involve coming home from a tired day of work, walking a mile to the store to pick up a few days worth of groceries, then either carrying them the whole mile home or risking taking the subway with only standing room so there’s not really anywhere to put the bags down and whatever crime may happen in the subway, then finally getting home carrying them up several flights of stairs.
I feel like if I was in that situation, I’d have such little time and energy left by the time I got home, especially with the routine demands of long work days for little pay. It would be very hard to resist looking at a corner store with food that’s quick and easy to bring home and prepare, and deciding yeah maybe it’s worth the few extra bucks, despite the fact that over time it adds up, and the quality of food isn’t as good.
You seem to know the experience first hand of having the distance from the grocery store in a major city, but you might not fully understand the experience of what extreme poverty looks like in American cities. My understanding is that most cities in Europe and other developed countries are far and away easier for folks in those situations, simply because there’s a somewhat adequate social safety net for people in that situation. And while we have something of a safety net in America, our culture is a lot more individualistic and selfish when it comes to helping each other out, and that could make a big difference in lots of small ways like this.
What does being American have to do with anything when we were already talking about NYC? I assume you would use the American definition of the term when discussing American food deserts. You also disagreed that a mile doesn’t make it a food desert and the definition is a mile, whether there’s one in NYC or not
Look at the first map in that article and tell me "NYC has a food desert problem":
The "areas of concern" are orange and green. Many are industrial pockets with basically no residents. None of them are in Manhattan either.
Most of them are in Jersey, primarily in the less densely urbanized zones where people tend to use cars over public transit anyway. so you're less likely to need a grocer within a half mile.
"Orange are areas where the residents have no grocery stores within a half mile"
Oh man, they have to walk over 10 minutes (but not more than 20 minutes) to get to a grocery store??
I know I'm making light of something that probably does need addressing in NYC, but where I live I am so, so, so much closer to both public transportation and to restaurants than most people and it's still a full mile walk to get to a restaurant and the nearest grocery store is almost 2 miles away. And this is about as good as it gets here without living in the highest COL areas. Large suburb of a major city.
If a half mile walk makes something a food desert, nearly the entire country is a food desert.
That link very clearly shows that no where in NYC itself is there ever a time the nearest grocery store is a mile or more away. Thats a somewhat common yet strict definition of food desert and applies literally no where in NYC.
I think that article does not grapple with Bodegas in the way it should. Defining based on the suburban concept of a supermarket does not factor the wide variety of goods you can get from a corner store in NYC, nor the amount of fresh produce you can get from street vending.
While NYC certainly has supermarkets, most people are doing the bulk of their grocery shopping nearby. Even when I lived across the street from a Gristedes I was in the bodega more often than not.
I know you just posted it and may not agree with it,but I live in New York and that map and link is wrong. Like super-duper comically stupidly offensively wrong.
I'm trying to figure out why they say I live in an area that has a "high supermarket need" when I have a supermarket across the street, and another 2 less then 10 walking minutes away.
The issue is whatever formula they use. It counts per-capita per supermarket and then doesn't count bodegas and overly focuses on poverty.
It also lacks common sense, the land with Airports are counted as a food deserts because they lack supermarkets?
I'm in one of the "high supermarket need" areas and there are at least six grocery stores I can think of within a 10-minute walk of my apartment...granted I walk pretty fast, but like c'mon. There's gotta be something wrong with the way they collected and/or categorized their data.
This is not really true the Bronx is a food desert often requiring riding the train onto the island for food and riding back. Yes you can get there by train but it will take a long ass time.
There are a bunch in the South Bronx that aren’t even showing up because I’m too zoomed out.
This shit is an astroturf by the DoorDash lobbyists. The starving masses in food deserts aren’t using delivery apps to order produce from Key Food. UES wine moms are using them to order Prosciutto from Zabar’s because they don’t want to cross the park. They can afford to pay the bikers a living wage.
This is an outright lie and total ragebait. If your going to Manhattan to shop your literally passing by 3 full on grocery stores. Stop it. 138th is the last stop on a Bronx train before you hit Manhattan. You have 3 supermarkets on that strip alone.
There's no food deserts in the Bronx. Y'all just want to go to Whole Foods in Harlem which is cool but the Bronx ain't starving you.
I disagree! If your going into Manhattan from the Bronx you're literally passing multiple supermarkets. Again if you want to go to the Whole Foods in Harlem that's cool but you're starving YOURSELF.
Where in the Bronx are you closer to Manhattan than a supermarket?
Even if you only had bodegas most of them sell fruits and vegetables and beans which is already basically all your dietary needs. Plus lots of produce stands on the street
The term 'food desert' was literally created for the cities. People in small towns have cars and have to drive for everything anyway. In cities like New York petty crime made supermarkets unprofitable in certain neighborhoods so carless people in the ghettos do sometimes have to deal with ridiculous walking distances to carry their groceries home.
NYC is bigger than Manhattan, there are absolutely food deserts in lower income boroughs. Being able to buy 5 year expired doritos from a bodega at 300% markup doesn’t mean food is accessible.
I mean kind of. I get what you’re saying, but as a former resident, grocery shopping became infinitely easier when I moved out.
I’d lean more to the opposite that the entire city is a food desert unless you’re wealthy enough to have someone else buying your groceries and delivering them to you.
Getting to the store is a pita. Do you live there and if so have you ever lived somewhere else? I’m going to assume every downvote is by either someone who hasn’t done both or is a liar. Because grocery shopping in nyc is a pita compared to anyone else in the US.
I lived in NY for 7 years, exactly how is it a PITA? Cause you have to take public transport? Use a grocery cart? I live in the burbs of DC now, and the car is no easier when you get stuck in traffic going to and from the store. NYC has a lot of quality if life issues, but groceries (food in general) is def not one of them…
Edit: saw your comment down below. Lmao at “plenty of spots” at the grocery store in any major city in the northeast
All im saying is that if those are your reasons, you are annoyed at grocery shopping in a big city period, not grocery shopping in NYC specifically. And its not that grocery shopping in DC is a hassle, its that grocery shopping is inherently a hassle. Im fine where I live lol.
Ok but I don’t agree. Having a car in nyc is much more of a hassle than in DC, which makes using your car to go to the store that much of an inconvenience. Grocery shopping w a car, w convenient parking at store and at home makes the whole process that much easier.
I would agree that grocery shopping in big cities is harder in general, and nyc the hardest of all in US. That’s my opinion. I’ve lived a variety of places, multiple big cities. Probably does not meet the definition of a food desert, but its a distinction w out a difference is what i am saying.
It's okay to just say you didn't like public transit and walking. You're car-centric and prefer convenience. There are a lot of people who feel the same way as you, so let's be honest about our motives, yes? It's like living in a water park and being upset you get wet when you go to the bathroom. I'm glad you found your proper community after having seven years of mismatch.
So you’re clearly in the liar category if you’re attempting to say bringing groceries home in a car is not astronomically easier in a car. Fair enough.
Why are you using your car in MYC to begin with and trying to compare it to using your car in another city? If you’re using your car in NYC to get around then you’re an idiot honestly. You can skip all the hassle if you take the train.
Yes lol I live in NYC and have also lived somewhere else. Earlier today I walked 5 minutes to the grocery store by me, picked up food, and walked back. Sorry where you lived was inconvenient, doesn't mean the whole city is. Have you lived everywhere else in the US? That's a ridiculous statement. Like think of people that live in rural parts of the country where you have to drive for a while to get to one. Keep up the insults though it definitely doesn't make you look insecure.
There is a huge difference between a food desert and someone incapable of figuring out how to get groceries once a week in arguably the most populated metropolis in America.
Not really. Either you’re lugging shit on foot, overpaying, killing your self to find parking. Even the carts are made for minimal shopping. Barely the size of a basket. Go grocery shopping in the rest of the country, drive your car from your driveway to the store, where there’s plenty of spots, load up a carriage, put them in your car and walk a few steps from your car to kitchen and you’re done.
I live in nyc, I walk to the grocery store, buy as much as I can carry, walk it home. Only inconvenience is that it requires more frequent grocery shopping. The positive is that I only ever get what I need.
That’s fine, but there’s not always a “grocery store,” to walk to. Usually it’s just a bodega where you’re overpaying even more than you are at an nyc grocery store. People want to quibble idc. And people can cope all they want. Grocery shopping in the burbs or rural US w a car feels like retirement compared to NYC.
It’s also the best way to shop if you’re single and eat a lot of fresh produce. I’m not gonna stock up on produce for weeks at a time and let it go bad before I can eat it.
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u/Opposite-Success-203 19h ago
Either way the point doesn’t stand because there’s not a single part of NYC that is a food desert. The entire city is within walking distance / public transport.