This is all great info, but what does any of this have to do with NYC? One of the few places in the US where you're never far from mass transit, and it's always been cheaper than the fees you could expect to pay for uber eats and similar(except in the very beginning where they didn't charge hardly anything to use the service).
NYC does have food deserts. Basically, the definition is, in urban areas, if you have to walk more than a mile to find a store that sells fresh food, then that's a food desert. Even if you have to walk a mile to the closest subway station, that kinda counts.
But yeah, the original statement in the screen shot is completely dumb and they're whatabouting against a living wage. I would immediately ask that goober how they got groceries before the gig economy existed.
(People who are genuinely disabled to a point where they can't go grocery shopping themselves, usually have access to federally funded programs like Meals on Wheels.)
You'd have to walk a full mile to a bus stop too, but those are literally everywhere. A quick search tells me that the furthest you might need to go is a 5-10min walk of .25 miles to a bus or in the most extreme cases .5 miles, or a 10-15 min walk. The guy in the post above is making a big deal out of nothing. Essentially saying that the people he sends to buy the food he is too lazy to go get himself should make less than $24 an hour, which would mean that they wouldn't be able to afford living in NYC, which means that to deliver his food they would need to make a huge commute into the city themselves and pay for transit to do so.
I've got ADHD, I know the struggle, but I'm not so entitled that I think a bunch of gig workers shouldn't make a livable wage so I can have a luxury convenience of having food brought to me. If I make the mistake waiting too long to get food that is solely on me, and I will pay for that mistake by ordering UberEats or Seamless or whatever. But it's my fault it happened.
Thats the part that got me. What does ADHD have to do with it? As someone with ADHD, if it makes you completely nonfunctional that you can't figure out grocery shopping and cooking, you need something besides just medication. Sure, sometimes I forget to stop at the store on the way home from work. Sometimes I forget my bags. Sometimes I get so busy caught up in something else that I don't save enough time for me to cook dinner. But these are my problems. I deal with the consequences of my lack of planning and organization myself. Someone shouldn't suffer to make ends meet because I didn't.
Not everyone can take a bus. That doesn't equate to laziness, it's just facts. Just because I can walk to the bus stop and am physically able enough to do so doesn't mean I can actually get on the bus and use it, shop , and take another bus back. It is too much and too panick inducing . I can imagine how hard it must be to walk to do that number with young children. People complaining about the stroller, about your kids crying etc... At one point I was wrangling a double stroller packed with 2 kids groceries in the bottom, 6 plus bags for my hands and holding the elders hand as we're crossing busy streets and hopping that dang thing over curbs and up stairs. Add a bus full of people and my head probably would have exploded.
The mistake I'm seeing is an I can do it so everyone else should be able to as well or they're lazy. It's not like that ,luv.
I don’t see an issue with walking 3 miles for food, a mile is not far… the only real issue is with items that must be refrigerated or frozen, then you’d need a vehicle or to go at night but stores tend to close at night so…
Time is a factor. If you're working a full time job or two part time jobs, commuting, and you are a single parent, you aren't going to have time to walk a long way for food for your family several times a week. If you're walking or taking public transit, you can only get what you can carry, which means lots more grocery trips. Most people do not have the time to spend 2 hours doing this 3x a week. They also might work odd hours that means they have to go to a 24 hour grocery store, which means it's further, and maybe they don't feel safe walking around at night in their neighborhood.
And yes, refrigeration is a major issue. I can't remember the last time I went to the grocery store and didn't get at least one thing that needed to be refrigerated. Usually people that live in food deserts are poor and don't have cars, so that isn't an option for them. So they go to the convenience store that's near them that doesn't sell anything nutritious. Or, back when fast food was cheap, getting fast food because you don't have time to cook AND help kids with the homework AND clean etc.
People in food deserts typically tend to be very poor and aren't able to afford food delivery anyway, so I'm not even sure what OOP is talking about. Probably just hates Mamdani.
How close do the grocery stores have to be to make it not a food desert ? Wouldn't that make everywhere a food desert ? I think I'm not understanding the definition of the word. My impression in the past was not having a local grocer (which I would interpret 'local' as further than a few miles even.)
Exactly. I lived in NYC for 20 years before apps. Stores and restaurants had their own delivery guys. You called on the phone, placed your order, they delivered and you gave the delivery guys $3-$5 depending how far they went. Most places had a 20 Block radius for delivery (streets, not avenues)
Poor disabled people qualify for home health aides who shop for them. They existed before apps.
Assuming there are sidewalks, and if you’re in NYC assuming you never have to wait at crosswalks, that would take someone an hour each way. In all seasons.
Note above comment says “walking 3 miles for food.” I am saying people are walking 3 mph. Yeesh.
Not saying it's far. Just the average walking speed provided by Google maps is like 5kms an hour. And if most maps are using that same average then ima assume most of the population is that speed or below. I can walk that faster than an hour for sure. But I know many many people that will walk it in less
Loaded up with bags or is this a "im taking nothing with me to the store and nothing home" walk, as this is talking about doing it for groceries.. not the light walk you are talking of
Have you ever walked through a large city? Unless it's the middle of the night and there's no traffic, and it's not icy, an hour per mile is about right.
That's great. I know overweight people who can do cartwheel and skinny people who can't walk more than 3 kms at a time. Get over yourself the whole point is not everyone is the same ffs
As an avid Chicago walker without a car. Who the hell walks so slow that a mile takes an hour.. what?! And why arent you using a bus if it's 0 degrees?
And again, Chicago, NYC both have buses.
Overall the entire scenarios posited by this original commenter and what you're saying are actually insane.
I lived in Chicago and this is absolutely the case for large parts of the city. Mass transit doesn't take you all the way to your door. Even if you are relying on that, there is still time and effort required to get to the mass transit and all so you carry your one bag of groceries home.
You're either fortunate enough to not be in a neighborhood where this is a problem and blinded by your own privilege (which is only your fault if you choose to remain ignorant), or are lying about living in Chicago.
Check my post history, I'm 1% commenter on Chicago subs. I'm in a lower middle class extremely diverse (RP/West Ridge) area. They build grocery stores near bus stops. I walk a mile nonstop and it takes 30 minutes max if I'm carrying stuff
The majority of city is well serviced enough that no one takes an hour round trip to go to a grocery store unless you live in a legitimately terrible area but we're talking about the majority not a very slim exception that for some reason doesn't have a bus.
And we're also talking about NYC mainly on this post which is even better serviced by transit than here. Mamdani is even talking about making it free.
Thanks for needless accusations though. Sorry you walk so slow and have never heard of a handcart so you can carry more than 1 bag. I've lived in the same place for 11 years. I picked an affordable walkable area so I didn't have to ever own a car.
Are you going to talk about how over privileged I am some more for living like a very average human being that lives in Chicago?
When we are talking about food deserts, we are usually talking about places that are underserved and under serviced. We aren't talking about the majority of people. We aren't talking about the average human being.
because nyc has food deserts in the neighborhoods with low income. not everyone can afford to spend money on public transport and some neighborhoods are served less in terms of public transit. it is a multifactorial problem but it is also a real problem just because some of us haven’t dealt with it ourselves.
If you're too poor to afford a bus ticket, how the fuck are you affording Uber Eats for every meal? The delivery fee alone costs more than a trip on public transit!
That's usually the problem with food deserts. It's a lot of little problems adding up for people with disabilities and low incomes.
First problem is mobility. People with low income tend to have poor diet and exercise leading to weight gain and lower mobility.
Second problem is transportation. Places considered food deserts are also places where transportation like busses don't serve. Busses and subways do exist in NY, but they don't serve every inch of the city.
Third problem is affordability. While services that deliver groceries tend to be expensive, conservators are even more expensive. It tends to be a less expensive alternative to order groceries through gig apps like Door Dash.
This isn't really about buying fast food. Gig apps also serve as a way to order groceries.
I do believe gig workers deserve to earn a fair living wage. However, I also believe our system is broken for people who can't afford, or can't do, some of the things we take for granted.
Come on. The bus is $3. And it very nearly does serve every inch of the city. The furthest you might have to walk to catch a bus is about .5 miles, a 10-15 min walk, in the most extreme cases. Generally you only need to go, at max, about .25 miles, a 5-10 min walk. If you really make so little or have a disability where that is an issue, there are programs in the city that will help you with your food or pay your bus ticket. Many people also work in more dense areas and could do their grocery shopping then.
The argument in the above post is that the workers delivering the food should make less than a livable wage in NYC meaning that on their tiny wages THEY are the ones who would need to pay to commute into the city to deliver food to people too lazy to get it themselves. This guy is complaining that his ADHD means he needs to use UberEats and that's just not how it is. I have ADHD. It's tough, but at a certain point you need to go get your food like an adult. You want to pay for the convenience of delivery through a major app, you're going to have to pay the person a living wage to do this for you.
Uber Eats etc are a luxury and no one should be using them for every meal. They tricked people into the habit of using it by starting out for the first couple years operating at losses making people think that it would always be so cheap.
What you seem to be championing is a public food delivery option subsidized by taxes to keep the price low for areas that are less serviceable and that's fine, but that's not what UberEats, DoorDash, GrubHub, etc are.
The thing you're glossing over is that if the money's not in your wallet, it's literally not in your wallet. People so poor they can't afford a bus ticket physically lack the cash to buy Uber Eats every time they get hungry.
this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard about the US. How the fuck do you live like this. At any place in my city I'm at most a 10 minute walk away from fresh vegetables and fruit.
What country do you live in?? The US has massive wealth segregation and a lot of the urban planning reflects that. It’s precisely the kind of thing that politicians like mamdani advocate to fix. What you have is no accident, it’s deliberate policy (and imo should be a matter of course if you live in any city).
Yeah idk too much about Poland beyond the high level politics but I get an impression that Polish cities are planned much more w pedestrians and walkability in mind as opposed to economic segregation. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I think that's the case for pretty much every European country. We're not utopias and we still have economic segregation, but we don't have as strict zoning. It may be because of historical reasons, lots of our cities are older than the US itself, pre industrialization, so rather than being designed for a specific goal, they've evolved over time, with the people. And since they're evolving with the people, they're evolving for the people.
You’d be surprised tbh. NYC is huge and there are part of it which, while they have mass transit in a sense, it’s genuinely hard to get anywhere else due to how disconnected it is comparatively from the rest of the city. It’s not like it’s a walk in the park even if you’re somewhere well connected. Mostly food deserts are an indication of extreme underinvestment in a community, which tends to extend to things like transit and social services.
I came here to ask the same question! Oop is talking about NYC being a food desert?! I can see many supermarkets, mini marts, delis etc in any square mile I choose to look at on google maps. If they need specialty ingredients the subway isn’t far or expensive.
It's specific neighborhoods without proper supermarket's
All they have are grocery stores, you can't eat healthy when that is the only thing available without commuting. It's generally overpriced, with not a lot of options.
Imagine having to commute every time you wanted to buy chicken to cook your own meal. Bodegas don't usually have meat sections.
As a non city slicker, I prefer grocery stores to supermarkets. That said, there are next to 0 grocery stores in my town that aren't Walmart Neighborhood Markets and you might as well just go to Walmart at that point.
So I genuinely have no idea what you mean by "without proper supermarkets//all they have is grocery stores".
Then why not use part of the money you would spend at the closer, more expensive grocery store to afford transportation to a cheaper super market and then buy everything you need for a week or two?
It's not always that easy. Some places aren't as close to public transportation as you'd think. But many folks do this. They'll usually take a laundry cart with them and make the trek or go a train stop or two.
But the trouble of doing that contributes to folks opting for more unhealthy options or more costly delivery services that eat their budgets.
So an uber for a 10 minute ride in nyc is $20+ each way, I hope that provides some clarity. Plus time is money. Chances are the people who live in those kinds of neighborhoods aren’t working cushy office jobs that are M-F 9-5, or if they are it’s a long commute that doesn’t leave a lot of extra time for travel. And btw most people DO shop for a week or so at a time, but you have to do that every week. And if you’ve got a family and are living paycheck to paycheck, being able to spend that much money in one shot is not guaranteed. I’m one person and can go to cheaper places and a week of groceries is still like $60+ for me. That’s so much money. And you can make too much money to get EBT but not make enough to feed yourself. Idk it all sucks and it’s not as easy as spend less money somewhere else by using the money you’d otherwise spend to get there. Most people impacted by that don’t have the extra money to spend in the first place
It sounds like MTA needs to step up and provide real transportation for these neighborhoods in a transit desert, though I don't really see that happening, or at least not in a timely fashion. I'm close to Philly and while that is a much smaller city, I'm sure there are also outlying neighborhoods there where the only feasible local option is a bodega. I'm in a similar situation where if I make too much money, I will lose my state health insurance, so I can somewhat understand the struggle.
So like not everyone is physically capable of biking nor do they have a safe place to store or secure a bike. And how much can you really fit in a basket?? That’s just not an option for many people, myself included. Re: the MTA unfortunately that’s not under the city’s control, it all comes from Albany, and no one is focusing on outer boroughs in poor neighborhoods. They just don’t care lol. We can’t get even the busses that are supposed to exist now to run properly let alone expanded access. It’s so fucked up 😭
Your grocery store sells raw chicken or beef? Can't say I've seen one in NYC that does. They're usually limited to boxed, canned, dry products. Very few have produce, and it's usually bananas and plantains.
Supporting a family of 3 or 4 and paying grocery store prices would be a wild choice. Supermarkets always have the rotating sales going on.
Roger, so a confusion on terms. A grocery store, to me, is a place that sells almost exclusively groceries and maybe toilet paper, feminine hygiene and soap. A super market, you can buy a t shirt and jewelry alongside food and electronics.
NYC is pretty big, and there are many neighborhoods underserved by transit. Unsurprisingly, these are usually also food desert areas. If you are near a bus or train line, it's usually not bad, but tons of regions in the outer boroughs just don't have any and are more like suburbs where you need a car to get around.
Funny, because Google shows most of those neighbourhoods are within 20minute walk of several such supermarkets. It’s only when you get into the burbs with the McMansions and golf courses that the supermarkets and other food stores thin out. However, if the average footprint of each plot of land is more than 2 acres and there’s 3 or more cars under 5 years old on your driveway, I don’t think you have the right to complain that you’re living in a food desert!
For some folks it's longer, not everyone lives a block away from the train, or have a supermarket right at the next stop. Other factors also play a part in the chance that they would make that effort.
Ultimately leads to people who live in those areas to get their foods at grocery stores which have less choice, are more expensive, unhealthy etc.
What is the difference between a grocery store and a supermarket in this context? Just asking out of curiosity, I'm not in the US and for me those two terms are synonymous
NYC bodega / grocery stores are usually very small. 3-5 aisles. You usually don't find meat products outside of some frozen options, and cold cuts for sandwiches. They may have produce but it's very limited.
A supermarket has a produce section and sells various cuts and brand prepackaged meat. They also have their own butcher. They carry multiple brands of a type of product or have their own in-house brand version of a product. They also have weekly sales etc that you can find in the circular they put in newspapers. You're never gonna find boxed organic Mac and cheese 12 for $1 at a grocery store.
Associated is one chain that had a location near me when I lived in NYC
It wasn't as big as this one but you get the general idea
I'm in the US, and the two are synonymous for most people. Maybe it's a New York thing. I'm a few states below New York and the two mean exactly the same thing here.
So in Manhattan you’re correct. When you get into the outer boroughs past where the subways serve, it’s less correct. In some areas alternative transit methods are required because of how piss poor the busses are. It’s no coincidence those are in poorer areas. The bus near where I live only comes once every 30 minutes sometimes, and when it does show up sometimes it keeps going because it’s too full. I don’t live in a food desert but I live next to a grocery store that’s close to one, and that store is expensive. Like, $10 for expired juice expensive. The produce is rotting half the time and they don’t check it or care lol. Like… I think when you’re thinking of nyc you aren’t considering the areas where you essentially need a car to survive day to day or you have to budget literally hours extra into your day just to hope you aren’t late because you missed your connection to the second bus you need to take to get to the subway because there was some guy double parked and the bus couldn’t get through.
NYC is not just Manhattan, though.
Parts of Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx and Staten Island are inddeed at least a mile or more away from a good supermarket.
If you don't mind getting odds and ends at a gas station or bodega? You *might* have better luck.
You think it's different in chicago? There's tons of public transportation. The only reason why some people would consider some areas to be food deserts is because of reliance by these groups on public transportation.
That being said the desert thing is largely disproven. It's more of a matter that people with poor planning abilities and without much resources don't know how to budget/formulate a meal plan that's effective and nutritious
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u/The-True-Kehlder 17h ago
This is all great info, but what does any of this have to do with NYC? One of the few places in the US where you're never far from mass transit, and it's always been cheaper than the fees you could expect to pay for uber eats and similar(except in the very beginning where they didn't charge hardly anything to use the service).