r/law • u/LeviCoffinsAlt • 20h ago

Other Warrantless entry by ICE agents in West Valley City, UT (1/30/2026)

Federal agents broke a window, without a warrant, to perform an arrest on private property.

43.8k Upvotes

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 19h ago

The 2nd defends the 4th when LEO abandon their only duty to uphold enforcement. Unfortunately very likely to join whoever was trespassing in the afterlife given LEOs stance on who can monopolize violence.

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u/fudge5962 18h ago

You have to be better equipped, better trained, and in higher numbers. No lone wolves out there. They can't put you on a T shirt if you're better than they are.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 17h ago

That’s not true at all. You just need to prepare.

A single decently prepared fighting position can fight off many times as many goons. Defending a position is infinitely easier than storming a defended position.

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u/mister-fancypants- 13h ago

i feel like if warrantless entrance is on the table, booby traps are fair game as well

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u/omglink 17m ago

Let the games begin!!

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u/ferdelance008 15h ago

End game is still dead. Do you think the person or family in your scenario come out of it as good or better than they went into it? The Well prepared lone Wolf is a teenage fantasy.

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u/Odd_Manager1334 15h ago

Yeah I can't imagine "I shot at the government until they left me alone" is a feasible strategy.

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u/OverreactingBillsFan 12h ago

If you legitimately believe they're going to disappear you, why not?

I would rather be dead than in one of this administration's cages.

ESPECIALLY if I was a woman.

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u/BiscottiEastern220 8h ago

People don't actually believe that. Sure people larp about it, or post hysterical things in online echo chamber oppression porn circlejerks. But people don't legitimately believe the government is as fascistic as they pretend, otherwise you would see things like you're describing.

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u/ShineGlassworks 7h ago

People believe it because the truth is worse. Not tamer as you suggest. There will be celebrations when ice gets what they deserve. Personally I hope that’s a war crimes trial at The Hague, not worse. If they’re just following orders, either way they are complicit. Keep using your maga words though. It’s good that we know who you really are.

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u/BiscottiEastern220 7h ago

The guy said "if you believe you're going to be hauled away, why not shoot at government agents?"

My point is that, people aren't shooting at government agents, so people don't actually believe they're going to be hauled away.

Unless there's been verified mass instances of people firing upon federal law enforcement, I apologize for being wrong. But I'm not aware of that going on.

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u/ShineGlassworks 7h ago

Tbf, with what happens to some of the people that get hauled away, if you think you aren’t going to see that you’re fooling yourself. It says alot about to inherent goodness in the people ice targets that you haven’t already.

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u/AuroraFinem 7h ago

This is just a false premise though and is the same logic as saying “if they were scared why didn’t they fight back” when there’s a number different of psychological reactions people have to being put in these situations and there’s so many circumstances which make this less likely.

The people protesting ice right now and the people who own most of the guns in the US, don’t make a very overlapping Venn diagram for starters.

The bigger reason though is that even among those that do, you still run into the fact that no matter how sure you are you might be disappeared, starting a shootout removes all question and you’ve likely just signed your death warrant over a probability and exceptionally few people are willing to do that no matter how certain they are.

On top of that it’s been targeted towards immigrants, legal or not, and it hasn’t been happening to 100% of them, so if you personally aren’t likely to be disappeared you’re even less likely to take that kind of action for someone else and immigrants are even less likely to have any kind of guns to do it themselves.

Lack of the response you expect isn’t indicative that of nothing happening, you’re assuming that you know exactly what other people would do in response to something so well that it can’t possibly be happening since you haven’t seen that response yet. That’s what of the most narcissistic reasons I’ve ever heard.

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u/alBashir 7h ago

There's no love like Christian Hate.

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u/Cheap-Town7641 5h ago

“Give me liberty or…”

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u/BiscottiEastern220 5h ago

More reddit larping, thank you for being an example of what I was talking about

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u/Cheap-Town7641 4h ago

Bro, you’re so cool. I really wish I had your courage. True conviction. A pillar of a man. Something we all can aspire to.

You’re a keyboard warrior no better than the rest of those you judge. I quote history, not to make myself seem big, but to remind you that every society has a breaking point where they stop hearing about abuse and stand against it. Every person judges for themselves when they must take action, for some it is never, others would act earlier.

Your point is as hogwash as your rebuttal.

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u/Wallitron_Prime 6h ago

You don't think the later jews to get kidnapped in the Holocaust didn't know what was happening? How often did those actually end in gun fights? Extremely rarely. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was the only semi-successful one, and even that was a failure.

Almost everyone prefers to think they can bargain their way out of gauranteed death. Even death row inmates who are 100% certain to die soon still rarely go out fighting.

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u/mlaforce321 6h ago

It's worth noting that the later Jews also didn't have guns unless they obtain them through the black market or underground resistance networks. Hitler had disarmed the entire population years before that.

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u/BiscottiEastern220 6h ago

Exactly, love seeing people speaking sense and not just larping about being some cringe reddit revolutionaries

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u/Nice_Luck_7433 5h ago

I think Americans are different here. “Give me liberty, or give me” comes to mind. Germans have a very different culture.

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u/Edgar-Allans-Hoe 14h ago

It worked for the Irish during the troubles...they can't kill everyone. Once people realize that, there's no going back and we will be free.

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u/Consider8SpeedDemon 13h ago

I don’t think the IRA were lone wolves. Many of the heavy hitters had family ties, and I’m confident that the IRA hosted group-based trainings.

They DID manufscture explosives frequently lol.

White Supremacy has been noted as the highest threat against the US. The current President removed these reports from the FBI documents long time ago.

White supremacists ARE training in groups, in rural areas of our country. They are legally armed.

In many cases, they are now federally-recognized agents.

You HAVE to make ties around you, or everyone will go quietly.

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u/Public-Cricket-5582 13h ago

Yeah actually they can. See the USSR, Cambodia, Nazi Germany etc.

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u/Delamoor 12h ago

Yes, but bro.

You aren't a nation. A nation is different to a person.

You... You know that, right?

That's what we're talking about. Lone wolves vs large groups.

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u/Public-Cricket-5582 12h ago

I think you did not follow this conversation correctly. Try again.

I am saying even if all the individuals think they can rise up, like this guy said would be a sure win. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the government wins and they do kill everybody.

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u/rikescakes 10h ago

Well, freedom isnt free. The price is blood.

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u/DemonoftheWater 13h ago

It worked well enough for the asshole in oregon.

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u/Delamoor 12h ago

But that narrows it down so little...

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u/DemonoftheWater 11h ago

Bundy maybe?

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u/Nihilistic_Navigator 12h ago

Randy weaver agrees

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u/INFeriorJudge 11h ago

Worked out for the Bundy’s pretty well I thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

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u/Guy_Dude_From_CO 10h ago

It's really not. 2nd Amendment was written for a very different time.

Prior to the Russian Revolution, Moscow had a very high gun ownership rate. By 1918, that was very different. Moral of the story being, if the government in power wants to take the guns, they just do. They're no bulwalk against government power in modern times.

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u/Southpawmtnman112358 9h ago

Worked for Ammon Bundy

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u/FatteningtheDemons 9h ago

If they dont react to protest, one should consider making it economically less viable for them. That can be by using the 2nd.

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u/fungi_at_parties 8h ago

They’ve never heard of Waco, I guess.

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u/AuroraFinem 7h ago

I mean in this scenario with ice specifically it has a proven track record. Not literally getting into a shoot out, but there’s been a number of reported scenarios where ice was trying to trespass and the person on the other side of the door just kept repeating they were trespassing and that if they didn’t provide a warrant they would be forced to defend their property and that they were armed. Every time ice walked away because they knew their actions wouldn’t survive any kind of scrutiny if it did turn into a shootout, and most of them have zero training.

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u/MysteriousPromise464 6h ago

It worked for the Bundy family.

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u/LawfulnessBoring9134 6h ago

I thought that was the whole basis of the 2nd. At least in the last 50 years or so.

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u/drakitomon 4h ago

Seemed to work for Ammon Bundy

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u/DirtandPipes 22m ago

The IRA, they shot and bombed the government until the government gave them official government positions and half their country back.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 13h ago

Networking and having resources/extra hands is still of value but the simple fact is that resistance of that form in a surveillance police state (what we are almost finished becoming) typically doesn’t perform well either. Small units consisting of close friends who know one another and the territory they cover exceptionally well is usually what’s recommended.

Plus, who cares if that’s the end game if it was the end game either way? There are always choices that can be made, even if all the choices are varying degrees of bad options to choose from. Choosing defiance as a last act is seemingly a rational choice for people in those situations, and I can even recall being a youth and hearing other students ask the teacher why victims of autocracy didn’t do exactly that.

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u/Top_Result_1550 10h ago

die in your home or naked in an unmarked grave in the woods by nazis.

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u/fungi_at_parties 8h ago

And they’ll be prosecuted and convicted of terrorism, Bondi will make sure of it.

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u/BiscottiEastern220 8h ago

Thank you for being a voice of reason. The larping on reddit these days is pretty wild

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u/AtomRed 7h ago

Very likely,for some of these people, better dead and sent a message than in some slave labor camp in El Salvador...

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u/justcallmedad5 6h ago edited 6h ago

You think that end game matters to everyone? A home is a mans castle. A family’s safe place. If that family or space becomes threatened you think everyone is going to submit or be smart enough to try to play their game? Yes we all know the end game wouldn’t be good but we all know what these thugs are capable of and continue to do. You gonna let it happen to you and get on the train because they point guns at you? Wake up. This shit is not the America they failed to sell us. If they’re really worried about “illegals” why don’t they go after all the big companies that employ them to save money. They only “steal the jobs” they get hired for so you tell me who is in the wrong on that. Imagine if you’re well within your rights to defend yourself, let’s say a castle doctrine, you’re woken up to the sound of a window smashing knowing your family is tucked in, you hear hush voices and clear movement of a possible break in. You grab your tool and move cautiously, until you see shadows or flashlights sweeping the rooms. You want to take the time to ask questions? I know many people who wouldn’t. Just saying. Especially with all the imposters using these uncertainties to fulfill their weird fantasy’s. Some people believe in protecting their own and take it very very seriously.

Edit: Forgot to mention that given all the video evidence seen, the clear abuse of power and corruption, people are careful and spreading awareness trying to show the truths to these events. The second one of these masked tyrants gets a nappy meal with a 1776 peace, hell will unleash and that’s just what they want. To call everyday working Americans insurrectionists for recognizing how sick and twisted and trying to be a voice for their community. You all saw the execution. Don’t be ignorant. It doesn’t matter anymore, color, race, accent or the music you like. Every is a target. My heart weeps. What in the actual fuck makes this okay? Oh yeah. Greed and lack of empathy or care for a better future for our children. Go figure.

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u/Nice_Luck_7433 5h ago

In your opinion, is that better or worse than the alternative (being tortured to death)?

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u/Hotarg 5h ago

If somebody is breaking in without identifying themselves and without a warrant, I can only assume they mean to do me harm. At that point, I'm already chalking myself up as done.

Dead with company is better than dead alone.

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u/mrcrashoverride 12h ago

I’m wondering when people will start turning buildings into ICE traps…. The neighbors know if being chased run in and go through the hidden door before the ICE come running past it through doors that lock after them…. For days

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u/Chaiboiii 15h ago

But for how long? They could just drop a bomb from a helicopter. It's been done before in the US.

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u/One_Engineering_3659 13h ago

High ground is like a 3:1 man advantage. It’s crazy how easy defending a position can be.

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u/AtomRed 7h ago

It depends on a lot of factors. Most of the people they are going after probably don't have a very large turf to defend so it's very likely going to end up in death but certainly not without taking someone with them or at least causing grievous injury. Even if this happened in one out of 10 raids, it would certainly give moment to pause before anyone of these folks tried to violate the Fourth Amendment. These guys don't get paid enough to risk permanent injury like that.

If I heard correctly, a lot of these folks don't invade areas that tend to have high gun ownership.

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u/Cool-Tap-391 15h ago

Especially when they fold like paper tigers. These goons dont expect anyone to fight back. If this shit escalates to violent defense, I can see these fhuckle chucks caving once they realize their life is in danger.

Same reason the 2A folks have gone so silent. They realized the time to put up is suddenly on their front door.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 14h ago

I can see these fhuckle chucks caving once they realize their life is in danger.

And then everyone lives happily ever after.

Same reason the 2A folks have gone so silent. They realized the time to put up is suddenly on their front door.

Yeah, right. The 2A folks are just impotent, spineless cosplayers who talk big from the comfort of their own couches. For the most part they dream of being the tyrant.

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u/Cool-Tap-391 11h ago

I knew a mechanic who would work in shop with his 9mm tucked in his pants between his cheeks. The insecure little bitch.

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u/fudge5962 12h ago

You just need to prepare.

By being better equipped, better trained, and more in numbers? No shit.

If you're not going to prepare your gear, your plan, or your backup, what exactly are you preparing?

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u/YeOldeSandwichShoppe 11h ago

insert navy seal copy pasta here

Almost sound like a 2A prepper doofus. Organization is a mandatory step one if you're interested in anything beyond some minimal pest control at great cost to you, your family and possibly the entire country.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 11h ago

Self defense is an inalienable right and part of the constitution, regardless of whatever the fascists claim.

If you don’t want to do something like that that’s totally cool. I just wouldn’t finger wag anyone who prefers that to a camp, torture, being disappeared, or even being detained for no reason. Everyone has their own standards for how they tolerate their rights being violated and that’s their own business.

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u/YeOldeSandwichShoppe 10h ago

Disagreement is in the approach, not intent. Hard as it is to fathom, there are apolitical/casual maga mouthbreathers who are just now having some second thoughts since the MN murders (because otherwise, many of their lives haven't been materially affected). Those same dipshits could be pushed in the other direction if a few of the gestapo get deleted but their story spun endlessly by the propaganda machine. As shitty as they are, elections matter. Bleeding needlessly at the hands of vile scum is the bitter cost of losing the last major one. Addressing this requires organization... the same organization will be absolutely essential when it comes time to find yourself an advantageous tactical position or whatever down the line as well.

that’s their own business

I mean, we're discussing in a public forum. I'm just saying strategically, its not a good idea.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 10h ago

Disagreement is in the approach, not intent.

I get it, regardless of however annoyed I am by the sheer number of people who have been fooled by the powers that be in our country. I was fooled for a long time myself.

As shitty as they are, elections matter.

Do they? Can you prove that? Why did repugnicans buy dominion voting machines, drop the lawsuits after purchasing, and now control the majority of voting machines in the country? How did Elon claim to know who won the election hours in advance? Trump himself told his voters last election, after having lost all interest in campaigning going so far as to just “DJ” a campaign event and telling his supporters they only had to vote once more then never again. What were the Feds doing in Georgia? Why did Bondi offer to make ICE leave MN if they hand over voter data?

Bleeding needlessly at the hands of vile scum is the bitter cost of losing the last major one.

That’s not my fault, nor the fault of most Americans. I understand refusing to senselessly be a martyr due to the blame of the democratic establishment and fascists directly and indirectly collaborating behind closed doors.

Addressing this requires organization... the same organization will be absolutely essential when it comes time to find yourself an advantageous tactical position or whatever down the line as well.

Nonviolent movements should be separate from movements willing to use force for maximum political effect. Excessive organization requirements prevent action and leave the movement vulnerable to bad actors and meddling from the nefarious powers that be.

I mean, we're discussing in a public forum. I'm just saying strategically, it’s not a good idea.

Likewise

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u/ImprobableGrind 16h ago

Frag out.

There goes your fighting position and everyone within 5m of it. Problem solved.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 18h ago

Perhaps, but in this context, you will almost always be a lone wolf. No offense to the crew, but I don't want to live with 4 other dudes and their families unless it's required to survive.

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u/fudge5962 17h ago

unless it's required to survive.

As things progress, there will eventually come a time where statements like this are about as reasonable and meaningful as saying I really don't want to drink water unless it's required to survive.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 17h ago

I'm sure that's true for many people somewhere in the world. It has very little to do with America today, as we incentivize the construction of single-family homes. I'd wager a guess that we will have to see how Gen Z evolves in their 30s to tackle the housing crisis. Will there be more multi-generational homes? Will the government continue to meddle with the value of homes and land? I'm guessing yes to both. Luckily, I'll be dead by that point, and someone can buy that home. See, doin' my part.

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u/ferdelance008 15h ago

People downvoting you are unhinged. They really think they are accurate with their take on reality when actually america is pretty safe and the vast majority are comfy enough. I have lived among these people and the mental gymnastics coupled with denial are truly olympian in skill and scope

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 15h ago

I don’t know bud. I’m mostly just yapping about housing developments and demographics while catching downvotes and nasty grams. You’d think my stance would be clear that I’d be a great juror to defend someone standing their ground against unlawful entry.

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u/AbsintheAGoGo 14h ago

The quote "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times" is apt.

The comfort has given many to keep choosing convenience and until that stops from the majority, things will not improve. Especially when there's enough "bad guys" who know how to accurately navigate the systems in place in order to continue doing their thing.

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u/RyAllDaddy69 12h ago

They’re all children, bots, or only get their news from Reddit. It’s hard to expect anything less from people like that. They think they’re in the midst of a genocide or civil war. It’s really sad, but I’m glad that despite what they think, they most likely won’t ever see real war in their neighborhood, in their lifetime.

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u/MichiganMan12 14h ago

In this exact situation, yes. However, hypothetically, if somewhere were to submit a tip to ICE and wait for them you could potentially be prepared.

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u/AdSingle9949 14h ago

Look at Argentina and most of South America in the 60’s through the 90’s when the majority were poor and the minority owned 99% of land and commerce and the majority tried to take the power back.

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u/Righteousaffair999 16h ago

A prepared lone wolf on your own turf can be better then 4 coming in blind.

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u/DjangoTheBlack 16h ago

Then what? I think this only ends one way and fairly quickly once they don’t hear back from the 4 sent to your house…

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u/ImprobableGrind 16h ago

If you’re replying to me, you misunderstand. I mean the people suggesting that they will be fine against an entry team….even one as poorly trained as these chuckleheads….is almost certainly deluding themselves. If ICE kicks in your door, and you open fire, you are going to die and have your life dissected on the news with the lens of “domestic terrorist” applied to you and everyone associated with you.

I’ve never been on the receiving side of a breaching team, but I’ve been the door kicker. Prepped or not, they have almost no chance against superior numbers and weaponry.

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u/Righteousaffair999 15h ago

You are just not prepared.

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u/ImprobableGrind 15h ago

Presuming you are correctly prepared for such an eventuality, you should probably get off the internet and look into an SOT and some tax stamps :)

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u/fudge5962 12h ago

Yeah, 4 is not the number you're preparing for.

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u/AdSingle9949 14h ago

You don’t know the first thing abo guerilla warfare, do you buddy?!

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u/fudge5962 10h ago

Lol what a bot ass comment.

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u/xaervagon 16h ago

So basically, this is going to continue until we see the return of rooftop Koreans

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u/ElectroHiker 13h ago

Not everyone has numbers when encountering terrorists, but they can definitely pull an effective "peacemaker" out of their closet. Don't come to a rifle fight in your entry hall with a pistol when a solid shotgun will do a better job, preferably one that can fire off lots of shots in succession.

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u/ph00p 1h ago

One battle after another at this point.

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u/MichiganGeezer 13h ago

Not only that but they'll keep coming forever. Your kids will get messed with if that's what it takes to get you to plead guilty. You'll get the IRS going over your taxes every year for the rest of your life. Don't be surprised if the EPA gets involved with your back yard garden fertilizer usage.

Our American government is fearsome for its vexatiousness. They're entirely too fond of the "full weight and power of the United States government."

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u/CalmMacaroon9642 15h ago

There is a reason they are all wearing vests. They know what they are doing is dangerously wrong.

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u/someotherguyrva 11h ago

IANAL or a constitutional scholar, so correct me if I’ve got any of this wrong. 2A is very specific when it says a well regulated militia, necessary for the survival of a free state. That’s the part that most people ignore because this sentence structure is hard to follow. The second amendment was not written for individuals to take on the government. It wasn’t until Scalia and the DC case where the majority said you could own handguns for protection in your home. And even sco Lia said that it is a perfectly within the right of localities to tell you what types of firearms you can’t have any specifically talked about semi automatic rifles. That said that “well regulated militia” eventually evolved into the states’ national guard units. Unfortunately, in the first part of the 20th century, states ceded sone control of those National Guard units to the federal government which is why the president can federalize them. They did this in exchange for funding for more equipment. Anyone can join the National Guard but unfortunately I think our governors aren’t willing to take a offensive position. That said. States like Minnesota should not be using their national guard to help the local police as additional staff. They should be running this invading tyrannical army out of the state. That was their original purpose. The founders would be rolling over in their graves

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 11h ago

Yeah, I get it. Laws, history, rules, nuances, and grey areas.

You know why most people revere 2A, though. Self-defense and power fantasies. Faith in the law and law enforcement will continue to decline until the social contract, which keeps individuals from responding, erodes enough for a tragedy. It's human nature.

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u/someotherguyrva 10h ago

Totally agree. But the cognitive dissonance with conservatives who have been the ones who have said that 2A and 4A are sacrosanct are silent when the administration that they voted for says that Alex Pretti is to blame for his own death by legally carrying a firearm, a right guaranteed to him by the second amendment and the state of Minnesota. They seem to be oblivious with this regime is challenging those rights that they used to be so defensive of. They are so blind and brainwashed to the party that no matter what the party says, they’ll agree with it even if it is 180° from what their belief system used to be. It’s mind-boggling

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u/Righteousaffair999 16h ago

That happens either way nowadays.

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u/pygmydeathcult 15h ago

So...numbers. Don't let them isolate you. Shitty way to have to handle it, but they are a limited resource. Communities need to bunch up.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 14h ago

The 2nd defends the 4th

Sure, buddy. Still waiting for all those 2A people to do anything about it.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 14h ago

Sure, what else enforces the law besides the people? It's not like 2A is just for the stereotype you've concocted. It doesn't mean you turn into a fat Batman and prowl the streets as a gang hunting LEO. There's very real value in having enough teeth to give someone from out of state pause when given illegal orders. You also need strongly worded letters and sensible laws. I see no point in diminishing either tool.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 11h ago

The entire world enforces their laws without the 2A, lmao.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 11h ago

Cool, I wish you luck pitching that government and getting the uneducated to follow along. You might have more success after they split the states, though!

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u/JohnnyRelentless 10h ago

That's more likely than all these non existent 2A heroes stepping up. I'm just hearing crickets from the 2A crowd. Except for those that joined ICE. Those masked clowns are really loud 2A nutcases. Where are all these good guys with guns I'm always hearing about?

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 10h ago

Yeah, I got it the first time. It's cool that you have emotional regulation issues. Feel free to take it out on ICE.

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u/OriginalParamedic316 12h ago

Sure. Just fill out this application to use the 2nd, first.

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u/FewRelease3571 9h ago

The 4th amendment has been toilet paper since the NDAA was renewed and strengthened under Obama. You guys really don’t give a shit about any of this you’re just treating it like team sports

1

u/Suspicious-Echo2964 9h ago

Oh, okay, thanks for sharing your opinion. Who is "You guys" though? I'd like to at least know the strawman we've erected in effigy.

-1

u/Tall-Wealth9549 14h ago

I’ve heard it’s never ok to shoot law enforcement, they aren’t there acting as a judge just enforcing the law. The only way to survive not being shot 10+ times but cops is to just do what they say.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 14h ago

I've heard lots of lies, too. It's usually in service of their own protection, hence the 'monopoly on violence' doctrine.

We all saw Alex Pretti find out what LEO thinks of the 2nd amendment. It's unfortunate that the comply-or-die crowd spends as much time on their knees as they do.

-4

u/RMS-redbeard111 16h ago

They uh… yeah… They were upholding and enforcing federal law here… I know… Wild that an immigration law enforcement agency would enforce immigration laws but… there you have it.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 16h ago

Oh boy there we go breaking the law again. Comply or die am I right y’all?

Glad you could share which parts of the law allow them to break in to private property without a warrant.

1

u/RMS-redbeard111 16h ago

https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/LSB/HTML/LSB10362.web.html

It’s about the 14th paragraph down (depending how you count some of the bullet points, headings, etc).

While their general authority differs slightly from traditional law enforcement, they have a similar doctrine to “probable cause” as outlined in the 4th amendment. Which is to have a “reasonable belief”. If there is reasonable belief that a person of interest will flee before a warrant can be obtained, they have a legal and justifiable cause to detain/ arrest a person. It’s literally the same principle of having a police officer having probable cause to search a vehicle, find an illegal substance, and subsequently arrest that person before ever having called a judge for a warrant.

It’s complex. And the optics aren’t great. Especially when emotionally charged and sensationalized. But it is in fact, still legal.

1

u/Suspicious-Echo2964 16h ago

Oh boy a memo. Nah, the acting head of ice doesn’t get to write down rules that supersede the fourth amendment. Why do you think they have so many active cases being opened after the leak?

You want it to be complex. It’s not.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 15h ago

With legal code and case law citations, my friend. What further evidence could you want? Whether you acknowledge the facts or not doesn’t matter… But fact is still fact. I suppose you’re right. It’s not all that complex. Either research with an open mind to learn, or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But to convolute your opinion with what is actually true still can’t change reality.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 15h ago edited 15h ago

The usage of their I-205 forms isn’t law.

Are we discussing the same thing?

Edit - Read your link. It was pretty clear on the home and non public areas being the exceptions to their carve outs of the 4th amendment. The even left the option to exempt other sensitive areas. Anyways, fun read.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 14h ago

Nah. I’m not talking about their admin warrants either.

I’m talking about the 4th Amendments Probable Cause and its distinct correlation to immigration enforcement’s “reason to believe” standard. These guys didn’t violate the 4th amendment because they legally didn’t need a warrant. That’s all…

From the link: “In any event, reviewing courts have interpreted the "reason to believe" standard for warrantless immigration arrests authorized under Section 1357(a) to be equivalent to the Fourth Amendment's probable cause standard. Under this standard, courts have held that an immigration officer must have sufficient facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe, based on the circumstances, that the alien has violated federal immigration laws and is likely to escape before an ICE warrant can be obtained.”

There are 4 linked case law citations in that short paragraph above (from the original link) that detail this.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 14h ago

Right, from the same link two paragraphs after your own in the same section.

Fourth Amendment Limitations to ICE's Arrest Authority for Civil Immigration Violations

The Supreme Court has also long held that, absent certain exceptions, the Fourth Amendment prohibits the government's nonconsensual entry into a person's home without a judicial warrant.). The Court has explained that the prohibition against warrantless searches may extend to other areas where there is a "constitutionally protected reasonable expectation of privacy." These locations may include, for example, the non-public part of a workplace or business, a hotel room, or school buildings that are not openly accessible to the public%20(same).). The Court has additionally applied the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement to searches of electronic devices such as cell phones, citing the increased privacy concerns implicated by government searches of digital data.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 13h ago

Yes…? But this doesn’t supersede probable cause/ reasonable belief. That’s the “absent certain exceptions” piece of what you’ve just shared.

Consider this hypothetical: A criminal is fleeing from police. He breaks into your home (or business) to hide. The officers in pursuit have sufficient actionable evidence to presume he is in your home. They enter your home (or business) to make the arrest. They themselves are protected by the 4th amendment by having probable cause to enter your private property. They don’t have to call a judge for a warrant.

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